法王新闻 | 2019年2月

前西藏事务顾问谈"达赖喇嘛和大宝法王"
The Week:The Dalai Lama is within his rights to visit Arunachal Pradesh

Interview/ Amitabh Mathur, former adviser on Tibetan affairs, MHA
印度杂志The Week采访:Amitabh Mathur, 前印度内政部西藏事务顾问

时间2019年07月06日


Bamboo注:这个就是Amitabh Mathur,他的采访背景居然是大宝画的竹子唉~

Former Research and Analysis Wing special secretary Amitabh ‘Tony’ Mathur had been handling Tibetan matters for the Indian government till last September as adviser on Tibetan affairs to the ministry of home affairs. In a first-time interview, Mathur spoke on the Dalai Lama’s importance, the future of Tibetans and how India messed up its dealings with the 17th Karmapa.
前研究与分析部特别秘书长马图尔Amitabh'Tony'Mathur在去年9月前一直在内政部担任西藏事务顾问,为印度政府处理西藏事务。在第一次采访中,马图尔谈到了达赖喇嘛的重要性,西藏人的未来以及印度如何搞砸了与第17世噶玛巴的交往。

Excerpts: 摘录:

How do you see the future of the Tibetan community?
您如何看待西藏社区的未来?

The Tibetan community is at a crossroads. There are a few factors that are causing the dilemma. India does not have a refugee policy, and the Tibetans are facing certain restrictive procedures when they move around within the country and abroad. The employment opportunities here are shrinking. Settlements, which used to survive on agriculture, are no longer able to sustain themselves or provide opportunities to the Tibetans. Finally, the big question, where are they going to go? It has been 60 years, from independence to a middle-way approach [as advised by the Dalai Lama] and the various organisations which are springing up. They are a little confused about their future. What binds them is their unflinching faith in His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
西藏社区正处于十字路口。导致这种困境的因素有很多。印度没有难民政策,西藏人在国内外移动时面临着一定的限制性程序。这里的就业机会正在缩小。以前在农业上生存的定居点不再能够维持自己或为藏人提供机会。最后,最重要的问题是,他们将去哪里?从独立到中间道路[达赖喇嘛的建议]和正在兴起的各种组织已经有60年了。他们对自己的未来感到有些困惑。结合他们的是他们对达赖喇嘛尊者的坚定信念。

Is the dwindling Tibetan population a concern?
越来越少的西藏人口受到关注吗?

There has been a lot of migration out of India. The numbers are fewer than what they were ten years back. This is largely because of employment and other factors. How this will affect the Tibetan cause remains to be seen. It is something the Central Tibetan Administration has to see and analyse closely, and work with Indian authorities on how to get over it. The other factor is their own style of managing their settlement. If they think by knitting sweaters or carpets or growing maize is going to see them through, they are mistaken. Some reports have been written, commissioned by the CTA, on the way forward. But I don't think much work has been done to implement the suggestions.
印度有很多移民。这些数字少于十年前的数字。这主要是因为就业和其他因素。这将如何影响西藏事业还有待观察。这是西藏中央政府必须密切关注和分析的事情,并与印度当局就如何克服它进行合作。另一个因素是他们自己管理和解的方式。如果他们认为通过编织毛衣或地毯或种植玉米将会看到它们,他们就错了。一些报告已经由CTA委托编写,并指明了前进的方向。但我认为落实这些建议并没有做太多工作。

How do you see the way forward for Tibetans after the Dalai Lama?
在达赖喇嘛之后,你如何看待藏人的前进方向?

Clarity on this will only come after His Holiness spells out what his wishes are. He keeps saying it depends on the people whether they want to continue with the reincarnation system. He has been critical of it in the past, and sometimes supportive of it. The overall desire of the Tibetan people is that he must be reborn. Given this desire, will the Chinese prop up one of their own? I think the next Dalai Lama, if identified according to the wishes of His Holiness, will command respect and following of the Tibetan people. But then there will be a big gap between the passing on of the 14th Dalai Lama and the coming of age of the 15th Dalai Lama. That is where the rub lies—as to how they will manage Tibetan affairs and keep hopes alive during the interim.
只有在尊者阐明他的愿望之后才能明白这一点。他一直说这取决于人们是否想要继续轮回制度。他过去一直批评它,有时支持它。西藏人民的总体愿望是必须转世。鉴于这种愿望,中国人会支持他们自己的那一个吗?我认为下一世达赖喇嘛,如果按照尊者的意愿决定,将会尊重和追随西藏人民。但是,第十四世达赖喇嘛的传承和第十五世达赖喇嘛的成长将会有很大的差距。这就是他们如何管理西藏事务并在此期间保持希望的原因。

As adviser to the Union Home Ministry, what issues have you been tackling? Do you see any difference between the BJP and the UPA regime?
作为联盟内政部的顾问,您遇到了哪些问题?您认为BJP和UPA制度有什么区别吗?

What role can India play in the ‘’middle-way’’ approach advised by the Dalai Lama?
我正在就影响印度藏人存在的整体程序向政府提出建议。我不确定政府的做法是否有任何区别。我认为他们对尊者的尊重和对他的尊重始终存在。我没有看到任何稀释。

What role can India play in the ‘middle-way’ approach advised by the Dalai Lama?
在达赖喇嘛建议的“中间”方式中,印度可以发挥什么作用?

I don’t think we have ever officially expressed a desire to intervene in the matter. But I think the widely held view is that China should deal with His Holiness, who has ensured that the Tibetan struggle remains a civilisational one and a peaceful one. One cannot say which direction it will take after the 14th Dalai Lama and without his tempering hand. We just hope that it does not become a violent one, as the Uighurs who are struggling in China today.
我认为我们没有正式表达过干预这个问题的愿望。但我认为广泛持有的观点是,中国应该尊重尊者,他确保西藏斗争仍然是一个文明的斗争,一个是和平斗争。人们不能说在第十四世达赖喇嘛之后将采取哪个方向,没有他的磨练之手。我们只是希望它不会成为一个暴力的,就像今天在中国挣扎的维吾尔人一样。

China has always viewed the Dalai Lama’s visits to Arunachal Pradesh as a provocation.
中国一直认为达赖喇嘛对阿鲁纳恰尔邦的访问是一种挑衅。

The Tawang monastery in Arunachal Pradesh is one of the largest monasteries outside Tibet. It has a special place for His Holiness as he came to India via Tawang. Arunachal Pradesh is an integral part of India. So, given the importance of the monastery and the following His Holiness commands in the Himalayan belt, he is well within his rights to go there, and the government is well within its rights to help him visit these places. I don’t see why the Chinese should see it as a provocation. It was not intended to irritate the Chinese, it was intended to allow His Holiness to visit places where he is worshipped. And, it is not just the Dalai Lama. Earlier, the 17th Karmapa also went to Arunachal Pradesh precisely to fulfil the wishes of the devotees there.
阿鲁纳恰尔邦的达旺寺是西藏以外最大的寺院之一。当他通过达旺来到印度时,它有一个特殊的地方供尊者使用。阿鲁纳恰尔邦是印度不可分割的一部分。因此,考虑到寺院的重要性以及喜马拉雅地区遵从尊者的指示,他完全有权去那里,政府完全有权利帮助他访问这些地方。我不明白为什么中国人应该把它视为挑衅。它不是为了激怒中国人,而是为了让尊者去访问崇拜他的地方。而且,不只是达赖喇嘛。早些时候,第17世噶玛巴也前往阿鲁纳恰尔邦,正是为了满足那里信徒的愿望。

When President Xi Jinping visited India in 2014, there were reports that the Dalai Lama was not allowed to meet him because the Ministry of External Affairs developed cold feet.
当习近平主席于2014年访问印度时,有报道称达赖喇嘛不允许与他见面,因为外交部发了冷脚。

I cannot comment on this because I was not involved. But given the fact that the Chinese president visited India immediately after Prime Minister Narendra Modi took office, it would have been a little odd for the focus to shift from that important visit in which the prime minister had invested much, to the meeting with the Dalai Lama. So, if a request of this sort was at all made, I don't think it would have been entertained. I don't think in a similar circumstance, any country would have entertained it. But I really don't know if a request was made or Xi Jinping had agreed, or the MEA said no.
我不能对此发表评论,因为我没有参与其中。但鉴于中国主席在纳伦德拉·莫迪上任后立即访问印度,如果将焦点从中国对印度投入大量资金的重要访问转移到与达赖喇嘛的会谈上,这有点奇怪。所以如果达赖喇嘛有这种要求,我认为不会受理。我不认为在类似的情况下,任何国家都会接受它。但我真的不知道是否提出了要求或者习近平已经同意,或者MEA说不。

It has been 60 years since India gave refuge to the Dalai Lama. How do think it has affected India in the long run?
自印度庇护达赖喇嘛已有60年了。从长远来看,它如何看待它对印度的影响?

India has historically opened its arms to anyone who is fleeing facing persecution. Even at the tender age of 24 when he came to India, he commanded a lot of respect in the world among Buddhist followers. India would certainly have looked bad had it turned its back on him. Over the years, whether this has served us in good stead or not I don't know. But this is one of the factors in our relationship with China. Even if the Tibet issue were to be sorted out, we have other issues with the Chinese. I think both countries are mature enough to put this aside to develop our relations.
历史上,印度向任何逃离迫害的人张开手臂。即使在他来到印度时只有24岁,他也在佛教信徒中赢得了很多尊重。如果背弃他,印度肯定会看起来很糟糕。多年来,这是否有利于我们,我不知道。但这是我们与中国关系的因素之一。即使西藏问题得到解决,我们还有其他与中国人有关的问题。我认为这两个国家都足够成熟,可以把它放在一边发展我们的关系。

Why have there been no talks post 2010 between the envoys of the Dalai Lama and China?
为什么在2010年之后达赖喇嘛的使节和中国之间没有会谈?

Yes, I do not think there have been any formal talks for some time, but informal talks continue between His Holiness and the Chinese. Some are completely informal when Buddhists from China are visiting India. China is the largest Buddhist country in the world with 300 million Chinese Buddhists, perhaps even more. So, growth of Buddhism in China also leads to a better understanding. There have also been informal contacts with people claiming to represent high-ranking officials of Chinese government coming over here. But the Chinese have taken a hard stand and the issue has become one between China and the Dalai Lama, and not China and Tibetans. In a recent statement, a high-ranking Chinese official is learnt to have said that the door to Dalai Lama is always open indicating that he can come back to China but remain in China and not go to Tibet. Attached are conditions which His Holiness will not concede—that Tibet was always part of China among other things. Since it is a conditional offer, His Holiness is tough on his stand and Chinese are tough on their stand. The Chinese may also think that after the 14th Dalai Lama, it will be easier for them to sort out the issues.
是的,我认为一段时间内没有任何正式的会谈,但尊者和中国人之间的非正式会谈仍在继续。当来自中国的佛教徒访问印度时,有些非正式的。中国是世界上最大的佛教国家,拥有3亿佛教徒,甚至更多。因此,佛教在中国的成长也会带来更好的理解。声称代表中国政府高层官员来到这里的人也有非正式接触。但中国人采取了坚定的立场,这个问题已经成为中国和达赖喇嘛之间的问题,而不是中国和西藏人。在最近的一份声明中,一位中国高级官员说,对达赖喇嘛的大门始终敞开的,这表明他可以回到中国,但留在中国而不是去西藏。随附的是尊者不会承认的条件 - 西藏在其他事物中始终是中国的一部分。由于这是一个有条件的提议,尊者在他的立场上是强硬的,中国人在他们的立场上是强硬的。中国人也可能认为,在十四世达赖喇嘛之后,他们将更容易解决问题。

Does the Tibetan struggle have a ray of hope?
西藏斗争是否有一线希望?

Certainly there will be a void because all hopes rest on the person of the 14th Dalai Lama. All the self-immolations that have taken place in Tibet are for the return of the Dalai Lama and not for independence of Tibet. So, it will be a tough task for the people to find a moral beacon. There are many important Tibetan monks, high-ranking lineage holders who would have to come together to provide moral leadership after His Holiness is not there. I can't take all names but certainly the 41st Sakya Trizin, the 17th Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje and other influential monks of Nyingma school are some of the many who command a lot of respect and following among the Tibetans. Their views and opinions are heard with respect. So, it is not that the void cannot be filled temporarily till the 15th Dalai Lama comes of age. These high-ranking officials of the Sakya school and Kagyu school are completely devoted to His Holiness. They have made common cause with the Tibetan struggle unlike those who have remained aloof.
当然会有一个空白,因为所有希望都落在第十四世达赖喇嘛的人身上。在西藏发生的所有自焚事件都是为了达赖喇嘛的回归而不是为了西藏的独立。因此,人们找到道德灯塔将是一项艰巨的任务。有许多重要的西藏僧侣,教派的持有者,在尊者不在那里之后必须聚集在一起提供道德领导。我不能举所有的名字,但肯定是第41任萨迦法王,第17世噶玛巴邬金钦列多杰和宁玛派的其他有影响力的僧侣是在西藏人中受到普遍尊重和追随的。会尊重他们的意见和观点。因此,直到第十五世达赖喇嘛成年之前,并不能暂时填补空白。萨迦派和噶举派的这些高级官员完全致力于尊者。与那些一直冷漠的人不同,他们为西藏的斗争做出了共同的事业。

Do you think India mishandled the Karmapa issue as Trinley Dorje has left India and has taken up citizenship of another country?
你是否认为印度错误处理了噶玛巴问题,因为钦列多杰已经离开印度并申领了另一个国家的公民身份?

India has dealt with him very badly. To accuse him of [being a Chinese spy was bad]. No one would entrust such a task to a 14-year-old in the first place. I think the reasons he gave for coming to India—to get the best education, religious teachings and learning from the masters based in India and to be close to His Holiness—are true and should be accepted as such.
印度对他的处理非常糟糕。指责他[作为中国间谍是坏事]。没有人会把这样的任务委托给一个14岁的孩子。我认为他来印度的原因是为了获得最好的教育,宗教教义和从印度大师那里学习并接近尊者 - 这是正确的,应该被接受。

By subjecting him to unnecessary restraints and curtailing his movements, we have only lost a good friend. He is the only important lineage holder who does not have a place of his own to stay. New Delhi should convince him that his return to India will be unimpeded and the circumstances of his return will be far better than what it has been all these years.
通过使他受到不必要的限制并减少他的行动,我们只失去了一位好朋友。他是唯一一个没有自己地盘的重要教派首领。新德里应该相信他,他回归印度将不会受到阻碍,他回归的境况将会远远好于以往这些年。

So, the 17th Karmapa has not got a home in India?
那么,第17世噶玛巴在印度还没有一个家?

He is a tenant in the Gyuto Monastery in Dharamsala. We have dealt with him very poorly. We have failed to acknowledge the wide following he commands, cutting across sectarian lines and the positive role he can play in the future. As far as citizenship is concerned, as I mentioned earlier about Tibetans leaving India, if there will be restriction on his movement, he is likely to look elsewhere for ease of travel. And he is not the only one. Almost all the high-ranking Tibetan monks are travelling on documents other than the identity card issued by the Indian government.
他是达兰萨拉上密院的一个租户。我们对他的处理非常糟糕。我们没有承认他的大量指示,跨越宗派路线以及他将来可以发挥的积极作用。就公民身份而言,正如我之前提到的关于西藏人离开印度的情况,如果他的行动受到限制,他可能会去其他地方寻求便利。而且他不是唯一的一个。几乎所有西藏高级僧侣都使用印度政府发行的身份证以外的文件旅行。

So, I don't think we should hold that against him. It is no indication of his loyalty or disloyalty to India or to His Holiness, or his commitment to the Tibetan cause. It is merely a document to enable him to travel. Whether he is based permanently in India or not is also irrelevant as long as he remains one with the Tibetan cause and I have no reasons to disbelieve that. He has, in fact, attended condolence meetings in Dharamsala organised by the Central Tibetan Administration for people who have committed self immolation in Tibet. On a visit to Arunachal Pradesh, he presented khatas (a traditional ceremonial scarf which symbolises purity and compassion) as a mark of respect at the war memorial for those who died in the Indo-China war. So, I don't think there is any more special guarantee of his commitments to India that can be expected.
所以,我认为我们不应该反对他。这并不表明他对印度或尊者的忠诚或不忠,或者他对西藏事业的承诺。它只是一个让他旅行的文件。只要他与西藏事业保持一致,他是否永久居住在印度也是无关紧要的,我没有理由不相信。事实上,他在达兰萨拉出席了西藏中央政府为在西藏自焚的人们组织的慰问会。在访问阿鲁纳恰尔邦时,他介绍了khatas(一种象征着纯洁和怜悯的传统仪式围巾),作为在印度支那战争中牺牲的战争纪念碑的尊重标志。因此,我认为他对印度的承诺没有任何更特殊的保证。

But why have we been so wary of the 17th Karmapa?
但为什么我们对第17世噶玛巴如此警惕?

I don't know, it perplexes me too. Sometimes overzealous mid-ranking officers keen on making a mark, goof up. In the instant case, just before his departure from India that was something that broke the last straw on the camel's back. Immediately prior to his departure and immediately after his departure, there were things said that had upset him immensely which could have been avoided by some more mature handling. 我不知道,它也让我感到困惑。有时过分热心的中级军官热衷于制造商标,搞砸了。就在这一情况下,就在他离开印度之前,这是骆驼背上的最后一根稻草。在他离开之前和他离开后不久,有些事情说他们非常不高兴,这可以通过一些更成熟的处理来避免。

What do you think New Delhi can do now to salvage the situation?
您认为新德里现在可以做些什么来挽救局势?

The 17th Karmapa is currently in strict retreat for several months now. I think there is no need to initiate talks. What New Delhi need to do is to convince him that his return to India will be unimpeded and the circumstances of his return will be far better than what it has been for all the years he has been in India. More than the return, it is the circumstances of his return that matter. Will he be subjected to same procedures, curtailing the freedom of his movement? What we also have to recognise is that only His Holiness and the Central Tibetan Administration can comment on political matters of Tibetans. So, unless the Karmapa is entrusted with political responsibilities by His Holiness, he is merely a religious teacher. Neither should we press him to enter the political domain nor does he wish to do that.
第17世噶玛巴目前正在严格闭关数月。我认为没有必要发起谈判。新德里需要做的是说服他回归印度将不受阻碍,他回归的情况将远远超过他在印度的所有年份。不仅仅是回归,重要的是他回归的情况。他会受到同样的程序,削弱他的行动自由吗?我们还要认识到,只有尊者和西藏中央政府才能对藏人的政治问题发表评论。因此,除非噶玛巴受到尊者的政治责任,否则他只是一名宗教教师。我们也不应该让他进入政治领域,他也不希望这样做。

Bamboo评论:Bamboo猜想大宝是在闭“不吃不喝的关”,说不定已经“入定”了。要不然这帮人只要想办法在给他送的饮食里做点手脚,就能逼他出来了。话说前阵子因为大宝不听话,所以官方貌似把他封杀了,结果他就“自封”了。