法王新闻 | 2001年05月
地點：印度 達蘭沙拉 上密院
十六歲的鄔金欽列多傑(在他十五個月出離西藏之前是西藏宗教界最高的領導者)，到印度會合尊貴的達賴喇嘛之後第一 次公開講話。他是大家熟知的第十七世噶瑪巴──可能是尊貴的達賴喇嘛的繼承人。4月27日這位年輕人在記者會中展現了他的人格特質。兩天之後，他和時代雜 誌南亞總負責人邁可法德士(Michael Fathers)暢談他的成長，對父母的思念，以及對繪畫、音樂的熱愛。摘要如下：
Sixteen-year-old Ugyen Trinley Dorje, the most senior religious leader in Tibet until he fled the country 15 months ago, has spoken for the first time since he joined the Dalai Lama in exile in India. Better known as the 17th incarnation of the Karmapa — and a possible successor to the Dalai Lama — the teenager’s press conference on April 27 lifted the veil on his personality. Two days later, he sat down with TIME’s South Asia bureau chief Michael Fathers and discussed growing up, missing his parents and his love of painting and music. Edited excerpts:
When do you expect to return to Tibet?
Having come to India as a refugee, I don’t plan to return to Tibet until the Dalai Lama returns. I will go back with him.
The government of China says you left your monastery to go to India to reclaim the Karmapa’s symbolic black hat and other religious possessions. They said your reasons were contained in a letter you left behind.
It is true that I left behind a letter. I am perfectly aware what was in it as I wrote it myself. I said in it that I was leaving because for a long time I had persistently and repeatedly asked permission for my teachers in India to come to me. But this was refused. There was no mention at all in the letter of the black hat. What would be the purpose of taking it back to China — to put it on Jiang Zemin’s head?
Do you want to work with the Dalai Lama for an independent Tibet?
What makes Tibet famous is its religious traditions and culture. So my responsibility is to support the religion and culture as vigorously as I can. By doing this I will benefit the people of Tibet and the overall situation of Tibet. And I believe I will be supporting the Dalai Lama as much as I can.
Are you worried that Tibetan culture is dying under Chinese rule?
I am not particularly learned in the political sphere. But each and every nation has its own distinct spiritual and cultural tradition. And if there ever arises a situation where a culture could become extinct I hope and pray that it never happens to Tibet.
It is said that the Chinese are waiting for the Dalai Lama to die in the hope that the Tibetan independence movement dies with him. Where do you stand on this issue?
The Dalai Lama is not that old (he is 65), and he is also very healthy. I pray constantly for his longevity and I am confident he will be with us for a long time. During that period there may be political changes in China. As far as the youth of Tibet are concerned, I would urge them to concentrate on the preservation of the cultural and spiritual traditions of Tibet.
What sort of future would you like to see for Tibet?
I’d like to see a non-violent Tibet where our spiritual and traditional values are respected. My great aspiration is that Tibet and its peoples will live in a state of peace.
What was China hoping to get from you?
法王：毫無 疑問，中國是有計劃 的利用我。我受到非常特別的待遇。不過我漸漸懷疑可能是一個計劃，想要利用我來分化西藏人民和達賴喇嘛。
There was no doubt in my mind that China was planning to use me. I was treated as something very special. But I came to suspect that there might have been a plan to use me to separate the people of Tibet from the Dalai Lama.
Were you pressed to recognize China’s candidate as the reincarnated Panchen Lama (who is aged 11, and is the highest-ranking cleric left in Tibet)?
There was no particular pressure placed on me to support him. But I was invited to his hair-cutting and ordination ceremony.
What was your childhood like? Did you have any sense of being a reincarnated high lama?
I can remember being treated with great respect by my parents – I didn’t really accumulate much experience on my own. At the age of five I entered a monastery, and after that I was intensely involved in the study and practice of Buddhism. There was nothing in particular that made me aware of my position.
What do you miss most in India?
I came to India for very important reasons… Nonetheless I do think about my parents a lot and I miss them. I also worry about the people from my region (in eastern Tibet).
Does your previous life in Tibet differ from your life in India?
There are some differences, obviously. India is a different country with different laws and different customs. The main difference is that in Tibet I felt my mind was somewhat sharper. Here in India my mind is a little unclear. I think it might be the difference in climate.
Does this worry you?
Sometimes I feel uncomfortable about my lack of mental clarity. But if I go outside for a while, it helps.
Do you feel constrained by your surroundings (he is confined to an empty monastery)?
法王：是有受到限制的感覺，不過印度政府決定給我政治庇護資格，並且允許我去佛聖地朝聖目前情況已有改善。如果依這個趨勢發展，我的願望即可以達 成。所以我把這裡當作暫時的地方。這裡是不怎麼方便；好像一個旅館，這裡到底不是屬於我的傳承（噶舉派）。（此寺院是西藏佛教尊貴的達賴喇嘛格魯派的密乘 學院－上密院。） 問：你最喜歡什麼活動？ 法王：繪畫、詩和音樂──我對它們同樣的喜歡。我畫人物。我的畫沒有特別的象徵什麼，我只是描繪我當下所見的。 問：這包不包括你的聖觀？ 法王：是的。 問：你有沒有學習非宗教性的主題？ 法王：在印度沒有，但是在西藏有。我沒有讀政治或政治科學。不過我學了一點西藏歷史和數學；傳統西藏數學，它包括天文學和現代數學。我沒有再繼續學 數學，因為在一個階段之後，你不需要學那麼多，我不怎麼喜歡會計學，我也不喜歡數錢，有人替我做，所以我根本不用去試。 問：你是不是要扮演一個調適西藏傳統文化和宗教來適應現代需要的角色？
There is a sense of restriction living here, but it has been ameliorated by the Indian Government’s decision to give me refugee status and to allow me to go on a pilgrimage to the Buddhist holy places. If the trend in this direction continues, my wishes will be fully met. So I regard this as a temporary place. It is a little bit inconvenient; it is like being in a guesthouse. After all this is not a monastery of my own (Kagyupa) tradition. (The monastery is a “tantric university” of the Dalai Lama’s Gelupa tradition, or sect of Tibetan Buddhism.)
What activities do you enjoy most?
Painting, poetry and music — and I like them all equally. I paint people. My paintings don’t have any particular symbolism. I just draw and paint what comes to me.
Does this include your visions?
Are you studying non-religious subjects?
Not in India, but I did in Tibet. I did not study politics or political science. But I did study a bit of Tibetan history and mathematics; traditional Tibetan mathematics, which includes astrology and modern mathematics. I am not studying mathematics any more because beyond a certain point you don’t need that much. I don’t much like accounting. And I don’t much like counting money. Other people do it for me so I don’t even attempt it.
問：你是不是要扮演一個調適西藏傳統文化和宗教來適應現代需要的角色？Do you see your role as adapting Tibet’s traditional culture and religion to modern needs?
Both strands are very important. Traditional knowledge and methods are very precious. At the same time they need to be presented in a way that fits or works with modern people, and the knowledge that we are accumulating now. Rather than selecting one to the exclusion of the other, we need to bring them together. I am one of many people seeking to do this.
Do you use a computer?
I don’t know how to use e-mail and I don’t yet have the need to use e-mail. I don’t have an (Internet) link, although I hope to eventually.
Are the divisions in your sect and the presence of a rival Karmapa of concern to you?
I am a little bit concerned because it does affect Buddhist teachings and the survival of Buddhist teachings. But I constantly pray for the welfare of everyone without thinking or making a distinction between those who are on my side and the rest.
Sharmapa Rimpoche (a senior lama of the Kagyupa sect who has dismissed the 16-year-old lama as the real Karmapa and appointed his own) has called you an agent of the Chinese.
Up to this point I have done my best to deal with the situation in the appropriate way. I don’t want to speculate, as it will only worsen things.
Are you the real Karmapa?
The identity of the Karmapa is not decided by popular vote or debate. It is decided only by the prediction of the previous Karmapa.
What has been the happiest moment of your life?
It was probably my childhood, when I was still living in my birthplace, because at that time I was free and did not have the title of being a great lama. In contrast to now, I am living with the responsibility that comes with a title. It is a great blessing and a great honor, but it is somewhat restrictive.